史瑞納新書訪談：聖約與上帝對世界的計劃Interviewwith Thomas R. Schreiner, author of COVENANT AND GOD’S PURPOSE FOR THE WORLD
作者：Fred Zaspel 譯者：駱鴻銘
什麼是聖約？了解聖約這個概念會如何幫助我們更明白聖經？我是Fred Zaspel，是「書籍剪影」（Books At a Glance）的編輯，以上是我們今天的題目。我們會訪問史瑞納博士，他是這本新書的作者：聖約與上帝對世界的計劃（Covenant and God’s Purpose for the World）。
What
is a covenant? And how does an understanding of the covenant concept help us
understand the Bible? I’m Fred Zaspel, editor here at Books At a Glance, and
that’s our topic for today. We’re talking to Dr. Tom Schreiner, author of the
new book, Covenant and God’s Purpose for the World.
很高興你再次來到我們當中！湯姆。
Tom
great to have you with us again!
Tom
Schreiner:
很謝謝你，Fred，很高興看到你。
Thanks
so much, Fred, it’s great to be with you.
Fred
Zaspel:
什麼是聖約？
What
is a covenant?
Schreiner:
聖約和合同（contract）不完全相等。聖約是一種協議，代表一種關係的建立，其中有應許和義務；如果你違背了這些義務，就會帶來一些後果。我認為聖經裏最好的例子，也是我們最容易理解的，是婚約。聖經裏的婚約是一種聖約；這是一種彼此應許的關係；而如果這個聖約被破壞了，就會產生一些後果。有時候人們會說每一個聖約都和立約的血有關；但是聖經裏不是每個約都牽涉到血。最重要的幾個確實如此，但是，當然，婚約是一種不必獻血的聖約。因此，在我的書裏，我是用最簡單的定義，來看聖經裏所有聖約的例子。
A
covenant, in contrast to a contract, is an agreement where there is a
relationship and promises are made or obligations and there are consequences if
you break those obligations. I think the best example in the Scriptures, and
the best example for us to understand, is marriage. Marriage in Scripture is a
covenant; it’s a relationship that promises one another; there are consequences
if that covenant is broken. Sometimes people say that every covenant involves
blood; but that’s not true in the Scripture. The most important ones do; but,
of course, marriage is a covenant without any blood being offered. So, at least
in my book, I go by minimalistic definition when you look at all of the
examples of covenants in Scripture.
Zaspel:
因此，聖約是一個莊嚴的誓言，而不必要是用血來封印的？我想，那是羅伯遜對聖約的定義。
So,
it’s a solemn oath but not necessarily sealed in blood? I think that was
Robertson’s definition of it.
Schreiner:
沒錯。在聖經裡我們有一些聖約的例子是沒有獻祭，不需要流血的；而且，當然，婚約也沒有這些。你知道嗎，有些人說每個盟約都牽涉到一個事先存在的關係；而我認為這是對的，但是我不認為在所有情況下都是這樣。如果你看基遍人與約書亞立的約，他們之間就沒有事先存在的關係，但是他們仍然立了約。因此，我認為有時候有些定義沒有涵蓋聖經裏所說的一切盟約的內容。他們所描述的通常是正確的，但是按照我的定義，我想要的是可以適用在所有情況下一般的約定（bond）的定義。
Right.
We have a number of examples in Scripture where there’s no sacrifice, no giving
of blood; and, of course, in marriage there’s not. You know, some people say
that every covenant involves a pre-existing relationship; and I think that’s
usually true, but I don’t think it’s always true. If you look at the example of
the covenant with the Gibeonites and Joshua; they had no pre-existing
relationship, but a covenant was made. So, sometimes definitions are given that
I don’t think capture everything the Scriptures say about covenants. Often they
describe what’s often true. But with my definition I was trying to look for a
common bond that was always true.
Zaspel:
那麼，盟約的基本要素是什麼？是莊嚴的誓言嗎？還是義務？
What’s
the essence of the covenant, then? Solemn oath? Obligations?
Schreiner:
我認為是誓言，承諾，對彼此的應許。有時候在聖經裏，berith這個字會被翻譯為條約。因此，你們是對彼此做出應許，其中有一些義務。而且通常在盟約裏，如果你違背這些誓言和應許，會有盟約的咒詛。
Yeah,
I think it’s the oath, the commitment, the promises that are made to one
another. Sometimes in Scripture berith is translated with the word treaty. So,
you are making promises to one another, and there are obligations. And often in
a covenant there are covenant curses if you break those vows and promises.
Zaspel:
為什麼瞭解聖約對瞭解聖經來說會這麼重要？What makes the
understanding of covenant so vital to understanding the Bible?
Schreiner:
我會說我的書其實是對Peter Gentry和Steve Wellum的書，《藉著聖約而來的國度》（Kingdom Through Covenant）的註腳，而我認為他們是非常正確的——聖約是聖經故事的骨架。因此，我們為什麼必須瞭解聖約呢？我們必須瞭解聖約，是因為我們想要知道聖經是如何拼湊在一起成為一個整體的。我們不想只是零零碎碎地讀，讀個別的段落；我們想要看到整個故事。而我認為這個故事，可以正確地被稱為上帝國度的故事，這個故事是藉著上帝與祂的百姓所立的聖約而向前推進的。因此，聖約對瞭解聖經來說是絕對必要的。如果你不明白上帝的聖約，公平地說，你就無法明白，也永遠不會了解聖經。
Well,
I would say my book is really a footnote to Peter Gentry and Steve Wellum’s
book, Kingdom Through Covenant; and I think they’re exactly right – covenant is
the backbone for the storyline of the Bible. So, why do we have to understand covenants?
We need to understand because we want to understand how the Bible fits together
as a whole. We don’t want to just read the bits and pieces, the individual
paragraphs; we want to see the whole story. And I think that story, which I
think is rightly called the story of God’s kingdom, that story advances through
the covenants God makes with his people. Therefore, covenant is absolutely
essential to understand the Scriptures. If you don’t understand God’s
covenants, it’s fair to say you cannot and will not understand Scripture.
Zaspel:
請告訴我們，你在本書中如何追踪這個主題？你能給我們一個簡單的總結嗎？也許針對聖約的發展可以順便給我們一個概覽。
Tell
us how you pursue this subject in your book. Can you give us a brief overview?
And then at the same time maybe an overview of the progression of the covenants.
Schreiner:
好的。我是按照歷史一一地走過聖經的諸約的。若它們是聖經故事的骨幹，我認為按照順序來逐一介紹是順理成章的。我是從創世之約開始的。不是每個人都相信有這樣一個約存在；經文裏沒有出現「約」這個字。但是我會主張，也和其他人的看法一致，上帝的確與亞當和夏娃立了約。一個聖約是否存在，不是取決於「約」這個詞是否出現。譬如，上帝與大衛立的約，在撒母耳記下第七章，「約」這個詞就沒有出現，但是後來的經文稱這是聖約。我也認為何西阿書六章7節確實說到了亞當背約，因此經文有提到這個創世之約。
Sure.
I move through the covenants historically, one by one. If they are the backbone
of the story of Scripture, I think it makes sense to move through them
chronologically. I began with the Creation Covenant. Not everyone believes that
there is such a covenant; the word covenant isn’t used there. But I argue,
along with many others, that there is such a covenant made with Adam and Eve.
You don’t have to have the word covenant for a covenant to exist. The covenant
made with David, incidentally, in 2 Samuel 7, there’s no word covenant there;
the word covenant is just used later. And I actually think in Hosea 6:7, where
it speaks of Adam transgressing the covenant, that we have a reference to the
Creation Covenant.
因此，上帝與亞當和夏娃立了約，而這個聖約是他們必須在伊甸園裏，以祭司/君王的身份，在上帝的主權下事奉上帝。他們要以上帝的副攝政的身份來事奉；而我認為，在順服上帝這位大君王的前提之下，他們應當推進祂的國度。上帝賜給他們一個命令，就是不要吃分別善惡樹上的果子；他們順服這個命令，就代表他們順服聖約的主。如果他們不順服這個聖約的命令，他們就會經歷聖約的咒詛。而實際上我們知道，這就是他們所作的，他們違背了聖約，其咒詛就是死亡。
So,
God makes a covenant with Adam and Eve and the covenant is they are to serve as
God’s priest/kings in the garden, under God’s Lordship. They are to serve as
God’s vice-regents; and they are to, I take it, advance his kingdom, but in
obedience to the King. He gives them a command not to eat of the tree of
knowledge of good and evil; and their obedience to that command signals whether
they are obeying their covenant Lord. And if they disobey that covenant
command, then they will experience the covenant curses. And, indeed, that’s
what they did; they transgressed the covenant and the curse was death, as we
know.
聖經故事大可在這裏就結束；但是，我們在創世記三章15節看到，上帝賜給祂的百姓一個應許，就是女人的後裔會勝過蛇和蛇的後裔。上帝憐憫祂的百姓。在這個故事裏，我們馬上就看到後裔之間的衝突。該隱和亞伯之間的衝突就是蛇的後裔和女人的後裔之間的衝突。很清楚，在亞當和夏娃的悖逆當中所釋放出來的邪惡，就是死亡，因為我們來到了創世記第六章裏洪水的記錄。所有的人，只除了八個人，都因為人類的罪惡被消滅了。所以，我們再次看到上帝如果不履行祂在創世記三章15節所作的應許，祂仍然是完全公平的。然而，上帝赦免了挪亞和他一家人，共八個人，上帝也和挪亞立了約。而我認為這個約的基本元素是祂應許要保護這個世界，直到救贖的應許完全實現了。祂不會再次消滅這個世界，像祂用洪水消滅世界一樣。因此，我認為在許多方面，我們可以稱挪亞之約是亞當之約的一個恢復（repristination）。在某個程度上，挪亞是一個新亞當，要再次開始一個人類的族裔。上帝與亞當和夏娃的關係的許多特色，在挪亞身上重覆了——要生養眾多，等等。但是挪亞之約的基本要素是這個世界會得到保存，直到應許完全實現。不過，挪亞之約最有趣的一件事是，罪惡的問題仍然沒有得到解決。
That
could have been the end of the story; but, we see in Genesis 3:15 that God
gives a promise to his people that the offspring of the woman will triumph over
the serpent and the serpent’s offspring. God had mercy over the people.
Immediately we see, in the storyline, we see the conflict of the seeds in the
conflict of the offspring. I would see that with the conflict between Cain and
Abel, for example. But it’s very clear that the evil unleashed in Adam and
Eve’s disobedience is grave, because we come to the account of the flood in
Genesis 6, where all of humanity, except for eight people, are wiped out
because of human sin. So, we again see that God would be entirely just not to
fulfill the promise made in Genesis 3:15. However, we have Noah and his family
who were spared, the eight of them, and God makes a covenant with Noah. And I
think the fundamental element of that covenant is he promises to preserve the
world until the promise of redemption is realized. He will not wipe out the
world again as he did at the flood. So, I think we can call the covenant with
Noah is in many ways a repristination of the covenant with Adam. In some ways,
know what is a new Adam, beginning the human race again. Many features of God’s
relationship with Adam and Eve are repeated with Noah – be fruitful and
multiply, so forth and so on. But the fundamental element is the world will be
preserved until the promise is realized. However, one of the most interesting
things about the covenant with Noah, is that the problem of sin is still not
solved.
然後我們接下來會看到亞伯拉罕之約。在這之前，我們有巴別塔的故事，再次說明人類沒有根本上的改變。上帝與亞伯拉罕立了約，祂應許亞伯拉罕土地、後裔和普世的祝福。這應許地是迦南，起初的後裔是以撒，而普世的祝福還遙不可期。因此，上帝賜給亞伯拉罕的應許（我這裏只是作一個簡介）同時是有條件的，也是無條件的。最終，創世記十五章——那裏有盟約的儀式，亞伯拉罕之約是無條件的；但是沒有人會經歷這個祝福，除非他們順服和忠心。亞伯拉罕和他後裔的故事繼續著。我們來到了出埃及記。以色列人如今在埃及，而不在應許地上。後裔的應許在許多方面已經應驗了。事實上，這個應許大大地得著應驗，以至於法老王想要消滅以色列人，這也順道說明法老是蛇的後裔。法老想要消滅這個國家，但是上主應驗了祂對亞伯拉罕所作的應許。祂拯救以色列百姓離開埃及，然後祂與以色列人立了約。
Then
we move on to the covenant with Abraham. We have the Tower of Babel before
that, showing again that human beings have not fundamentally changed. God makes
a covenant with Abraham; and he promises Abraham lands, offspring, and
universal blessing. The land is Canaan, the offspring initially is Isaac, and
the universal blessing is rather far away. So that promise given to Abraham,
(I’m just being brief here) has conditional and unconditional elements.
Ultimately, Genesis 15 – we have a covenant ceremony there, ultimately that
covenant is unconditional; but no particular individual will experience the
blessings of that covenant unless they are obedient and faithful. The story of
Abraham and his offspring continues. We come to the book of Exodus; Israel is
in Egypt, they are not in the land. The promise of offspring is being fulfilled
in significant ways. In fact, that promise is being fulfilled so significantly
that Pharaoh tries to wipe out Israel, showing, by the way, that Pharaoh is the
offspring of the serpent. And Pharaoh is trying to wipe out the nation; but the
Lord fulfills his promise to Abraham. He frees the people from Egypt and then a
covenant is made with Israel.
我主張上帝與以色列人在西奈山與摩西立的約，是將以色列從列國中分別出來的約。我會論證，這個約是一個有條件的約。上帝向祂的百姓顯明恩典，拯救他們脫離埃及；但是這個與以色列立的約是有條件的。不過，倘若以色列人順服，根據亞伯拉罕之約，亞伯拉罕之約的應許就會通過摩西之約來實現。I would argue the
covenant made with Israel at Sinai, with Moses, that covenant sets apart Israel
from the rest of the nations. That covenant, I would argue, is a conditional
covenant. God shows his grace to his people in freeing them from Egypt; but the
covenant made with Israel is conditional. However, if Israel obeys, per the
Abrahamic covenant, it will be the means by which the promise of the Abrahamic
covenant is realized.
我們很快往前推進（我這裏走得很快，我們可以往回到你想要去的任何地方），但是我們很快前進到大衛之約。在這個聖約裏，我們看到亞伯拉罕之約的應許——土地、後裔和祝福的應許——會透過一個君王而應驗。在聖經敘事的早期，我們有這些應許的跡象，如今要通過大衛之約得到證實，成為實際。因此，那後裔——全世界要藉著他而蒙福——會是一個君王，而且基本上會是大衛的子孫。與此同時，以色列這個國家，在大衛和所羅門的治理下，大衛大致上還差強人意，但是到了所羅門，就陷入了嚴重的罪。王國分裂了，與以色列立的約的咒詛，在北國和南國身上都實現了。北國和南國分別被擄。
We
fast-forward (I’m going quickly here – we can back up on anything you want to),
but we fast-forward to the covenant with David; and in that covenant, we see
that the promises of the covenant with Abraham – the promise of land and
offspring and blessing – will be fulfilled through a king. Now, we’ve had
indications of that earlier in the narrative, but now this is substantiated
through a covenant with David. So, the offspring through which the whole world
will be blessed is a king, and will be a son of David, fundamentally.
Meanwhile, Israel, with David and Solomon, David does well, mainly, but
Solomon, of course, slips into significant sin. The kingdom is divided and the
curses of the covenant made with Israel are realized in both the northern
kingdom and the southern kingdom. And both the northern and southern kingdoms
go into exile.
因此，應許不但沒有實現，反而後退了，不是嗎？他們非但沒有在應許地上，反而被趕出那地。我們記得賜給亞伯拉罕的普世祝福，這也沒有發生。但是上帝與祂的百姓立了一個新約。我們在耶利米書卅一章、以西結書卅六章看到這個約，在以賽亞書和其他先知書也看到這新約。這個新約（我們可以在另一個問題裏闡明這點）是亞伯拉罕之約、大衛之約、甚至是亞當之約實現的途徑。舊約已經廢去了。舊約隨著新約的到來而廢棄了。
So,
instead of the promises being filled, the promises are going backwards, right?
Instead of being in the land, they are outside the land. We remember the
promise given to Abraham of universal blessing – well, it’s not happening, at
all. But God makes a new covenant with his people. We see this in Jeremiah 31,
Ezekiel 36; we see it in Isaiah and other prophets as well. And that New
Covenant (maybe we can elaborate on this in another question) but that New
Covenant is the means by which the covenant with Abraham and the covenant with
David, and really the covenant with Adam, is realized. And the Old Covenant
passes away. The Old Covenant is obsolete with the arrival of the New Covenant.
Zaspel:
新約和其他之前的聖約有何關連？它們如何來到頂峰？
How
is the New Covenant related to all the previous covenants, and how did they all
come to climax?
Schreiner:
我會說，新約應驗了首先賜給亞當的應許，即祝福和統治的應許。這個聖約應許是透過亞伯拉罕的一個後裔實現的。這是賜給亞伯拉罕的一個基本的應許之一，就是他會有許多後裔。但是當我們在新約聖經裏讀到，誰是那最根本的亞伯拉罕的後裔呢？是耶穌基督——加拉太書第三章16節。誰是大衛的子孫？這個應許應驗在誰身上？當然，賜給大衛的應許應驗了給亞伯拉罕的應許。好，耶穌是大衛的子孫，而且祂實在是神的兒子。祂是真以色列。祂不只是一個人，但是祂也實實在在是一個人。因此，祂是亞伯拉罕真正的後裔；祂是神的兒子；祂是人的兒子；祂也是以賽亞書五十三章的耶和華的僕人。我認為這也是有重大意義的，因為我們記得，在以賽亞書裏，耶和華的僕人是以色列。同樣，所有賜給亞伯拉罕的應許，如同保羅在林後一20所說的，都在耶穌基督裏達到高峰。
I
would say that the new covenant fulfills the promise, really, first given to
Adam, a promise of blessing and rule. That covenant promise is realized through
an offspring of Abraham, a child of Abraham. That’s one of the fundamental promises
given to Abraham that he would have offspring. But when we read in the New
Testament, who is fundamentally the offspring of Abraham? It’s Jesus Christ –
Galatians, Chapter 3, verse 16. Who is the son of David? Who is the fulfillment
of that promise? And, of course, that promise given to David fulfills the
promise to Abraham. Well, Jesus is the Son of David and indeed he is the Son of
God. He is the true Israel. He’s more than a human being, but he’s not less
than a human being. So, he’s the true son of Abraham; he’s the Son of God; he’s
the Son of Man; and he’s the Servant of the Lord of Isaiah 53. Which I think is
very significant, as well, because we remember, in Isaiah, that the Servant of
the Lord is Israel. So, all the promises, as Paul says in 2 Corinthians 1:20,
all the promises culminate in Jesus Christ, given to Abraham.
好，這是後裔的應許。土地的應許呢？這是一個頗有爭議的主題，但是我會主張，土地的應許基本上首先在耶穌基督的復活上得到了應驗。一切的應許都在耶穌身上應驗了，復活的應許也一樣。耶穌身體復活，是起初對亞當的應許、後來向亞伯拉罕和大衛重新確認的應許的正式展開。新約的應許在耶穌的復活上應驗了；但是它最終要在新創造——新天新地上應驗，那時整個宇宙要成為上帝的聖殿，上帝要住在全宇宙裏。
Now,
that’s the promise of offspring – what about the promise of land? This is a
very controversial subject, but I would argue that the promise of land is
fundamentally fulfilled, first, in the resurrection of Jesus himself. Every
promise is fulfilled in Jesus; so the resurrection, the physical resurrection
of Jesus, it’s the inauguration of that promise made, originally, to Adam and
reaffirmed to Abraham and David. That new covenant promise is fulfilled in
Jesus’ resurrection; but it’s ultimately fulfilled in the new creation – in the
new heavens and the new earth where the whole universe is God’s temple, the
whole universe is where God resides.
當然，普世祝福的應許，我們在舊約裏從來沒有看到其實現。但是這透過耶穌基督應驗了，透過教會的宣講，福音去到各國、各族、各民、各方。與此同時，我們看到舊約已經廢去。舊約如今已經廢棄了。舊約基本上是與以色列立的。這不是個邪惡的約，而是個很好的約。但是它沒有給百姓重生和改變內心的能力。因此，我們在耶利米書應許的新約裏看到這點。希伯來書，林後第三章，還有其他地方提到了這點。在主的晚餐裏，耶穌也提到這點。如今上帝已經賜給祂百姓一顆新心，一顆重生的心，而這是在舊約裏沒有提供的。新約不只是一個更新的聖約，而是一個真正的嶄新的約。我們不再活在舊約的規條和規矩下，因為新約已經到來。而且新約也應許，會有赦罪。當然，赦罪是透過耶和華的僕人，透過耶穌基督發生的，祂為了百姓的緣故而死，代替祂的百姓而死，好賜給他們新的生命。
nd of
course, the promise of universal blessing – we never saw that fulfilled in the
Old Covenant. But that is fulfilled through Jesus Christ in the preaching of
the church as the Gospel goes to every tribe, tongue, people and nation. At the
same time, Fred, we see that the Old Covenant has passed away. The Old Covenant
is obsolete now. The Old Covenant was made fundamentally with Israel. It wasn’t
an evil covenant, it was a fine covenant; but it didn’t give people the ability
to have regenerate and transformed hearts. So, we see in the New Covenant
promise in Jeremiah, which is picked up in Hebrews, and 2 Corinthians 3, and
other places, as well, the Lord’s Supper, Jesus picks this up. Now God has
given his people a new heart, a regenerate heart, and that was not provided
under the Old Covenant. The New Covenant is not just a renewed covenant; but
it’s truly a New Covenant. We no longer live under the stipulations and the
rules of the Old Covenant, now that the New Covenant has come. And, the New
Covenant promises, as well, that there would be forgiveness of sin; and, of
course, the forgiveness of sin takes place through the servant of the Lord,
through Jesus Christ who died for the sake and in the place of his people to
grant them new life.
Zaspel:
我很樂意深入談到這點，關於舊約與新約的關係，但是大概要找另外的時間。在我們離線之前，請問你這本書針對的聽眾是誰？
I’d
love to pursue this further with regard to the relation of the Old and New
Covenants, but I think that will have to be for another time. Before we sign
off, what is the audience you are aiming at in this book?
Schreiner:
這本書不是一本複雜的書，其實是給一般基督徒、主日學老師，是給任何基督徒讀的，是很簡短的書，沒有太多專業術語。因此我盼望一般的讀者都可以讀。你可以把這本書送給說這種話的人：「我只想大致知道整本聖經是怎麼拼湊在一起的。對今天的基督徒來說，我們怎麼看待聖經裏的諸約？」我盼望有許多不曾鑽研聖經，而想要對聖經有一些基本了解的人，可以讀到這本書。
This
book is not a complicated book. This book is for the ordinary layperson, Sunday
School teacher, really, any Christian. It’s rather brief and it’s not
technical; so I hope it’s just accessible to the ordinary reader – the kind of
book that can be given to someone who says, “I just want some sense of how the
whole Bible fits together. What do the covenants mean for Christians today?”
I’m hopeful that the book will be read by many people who haven’t done
technical study but want to have some understanding of the Scriptures.
Zaspel:
是的，在一定的意義上，我認為這是聖經故事概覽的入門書。
Yes,
in a sense, I think this is an entry level survey of the Bible story.
Schreiner:
完全正確。Exactly.
Zaspel:
我們正在和史瑞納博士談話。他是美南浸信會神學院的教授，這部新書的作者：《聖約與上帝對世界的計劃》（Covenant and God’s Purpose for the World）。這是一本很棒的小書，基本上所有的基督徒都可以讀，也是瞭解這個非常重要的聖經主題的一本很有幫助的嚮導書。湯姆，謝謝你與我們談話。
We’re
talking to Dr. Tom Schreiner of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and
author of the new book, Covenant and God’s Purpose for the World. It’s a great
little book, accessible to virtually all Christian readers, and a very helpful
guide to understanding this massively important biblical subject.
Tom,
thanks for talking to us today.
Schreiner:
非常感謝。很高興能和你在一起。
Thanks
so much, Fred, I enjoyed being with you.
